ONTARIO FEDERATION OF 4WD RECREATIONISTS
  • This topic has 12 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 11 years ago by Anonymous.
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  • #1416
    Anonymous
    Guest

    (– by Kona #7006 –)

    Hello all!

    I am new to OF4WD and the Forum community and excited to be a part of such a well organized and respecting group!

    I have a 2011, 4dr Rubicon and want to add a snorkel and winch to my rig. I ride maybe 6-8 times a year on easy to moderate trails, but as I get "ballsier" I am trying more and more challenging terrain. Since my Jeep is my daily driver and I ride primarily on my own I want the winch to be reliable and from what I've heard Warn and Superwinch are the way to go. My concerns are reliability, weight, also, how important is it that the winch be waterproof vs. water resistant if the unit is going to occasionally get dunked with some deep water crossings?

    So the real question is…Warn or Superwinch?

    Thanks everyone! Looking forward to meeting you on the trails!

    #2723
    Anonymous
    Guest

    (– by cerutti #6793 –)

    ive got a Titan (TW12) winch. love it. recommend it ;D

    http://www.titanwinches.com/

    #2724
    Anonymous
    Guest

    (– by BullwinkleTJ #6222 –)

      I ride primarily on my own

    This is a very bad idea even if you buy the biggest baddest winch there is. Besides the fact that ALL winches can fail, there are many other things that can go wrong. Last year I got out of my Jeep to take some pic's and stepped into a deep rut in some long grass and sprained my ankle(thought it was broken at the time). No way I could have driven myself out. Lucky I had a TB and 4 others Rigs with to help get my out  as painlessly as possible.
    Just saying…Be Careful Out There 

    #2725
    Anonymous
    Guest

    (– by Kona #7006 –)

    Thanks Cerutti, I'll check out the Titan line up.

    I agree Bullwinkle, going out solo is never a good idea but when I said that I ride primarily own my own I meant nobody else I know is willing to bring their Jeep…so everyone (1-2 people) end up in mine. So I'm not by myself but rather there is only one vehicle. One of the reasons I joined the OF4WD is so I could participate in organized events, as well as meet some people for some weekend trips. Thank you for your response, I appreciate it.

    #2726
    Anonymous
    Guest

    (– by Wrangler #5246 –)

    Ditto on the Titan Winches
    Ditto on the going alone … that includes though single vehicle …. always two or more !

    What general area you live in?  Maybe we can connect you with some other wheeler's local to you.

    #2727
    Anonymous
    Guest

    (– by Colin #5654 –)

    Like most things now a days…. You get what you pay for…… WARN WINCH ONLY!

    I have heard titan winches have a great warranty policy, but a warranty policy will not get you out of the mud.

    Never ever Go alone!!! You just never know what you are going to run into.

    #2728
    Anonymous
    Guest

    (– by Kona #7006 –)

    Thanks Wrangler. I'm in Toronto but frequently up just east of Haliburton on most weekends. If anyone else is near the Gooderham area I'd be happy to hook up.

    #2729
    Anonymous
    Guest

    (– by Wrangler #5246 –)

    I won't argue that a Warn Winch isn't better …. they are.  But they are also very expensive by comparison to the Titans …. and in my opinion the cost premium doesn't warrant the marginal quality improvement.  The newer Warns contain offshore parts …. as does the Titan product.  Difference is that Duncan from Titan visits the factory in China on a pretty regular basis to ensure quality, work on designs, etc.  The Titan I have is a workhorse and has not failed me.

    Kona …. there's a coffee meet every Tuesday Night in Newmarket at about 8pm.  Tim Horton's on Mulock between Leslie Street and Bayview.  Many guys who come out there frequent the areas of Bobcaygeon/Gooderham.  Alternatively, Brampton has a meet also … not sure of the details at this moment, Maybe someone can post up some details.

    #2730
    Anonymous
    Guest

    (– by Drizit #6240 –)

    I got a smoking deal on my warn, it's a matter of picking the winch you want and keeping an eye out for one to pop up for a good price on the used market.  (mine was second hand but still in the box) Duncan has a great product with great support, and I've seen just about every brand of winch fail at one time or another in the past couple of years. 

    2 titan's on one trail
    a titan and a champion on another (although the titan may have been an install/hookup issue)
    a warn 9500ti on it's first pull after being spooled, and a champion right before.
    superwinch and a riva another day.  point is I hedged my bets with my M10000 however I won't trust it enough to go out alone, there isn't always a tree handy where you need it and again it could drop at any time.  If you are worried about weight get one with synthetic line or factor that upgrade into your price.  Unless you are looking at the big winches most of the imports and smaller warns are going to be near enough to the same weight as to make no difference.  Synthetic line though can save you a large portion of the winches total weight, plus all the other bonuses that go with it.  Safer if it snaps, floats, no metal splinters, can be handled without gloves, won't scratch the truck if you touch the paint with it, doesn't rust.  If you are running a JK I would look at the warn M8000 as a MINIMUM starting point and lean toward the 9500's, if an import is more your price point start and 10,000lbs and consider more if you can.

    #2731
    Anonymous
    Guest

    (– by jason #6707 –)

    How do you pick the winch size ? 8,000-9,000-10,000-12,000lbs

    #2732
    Anonymous
    Guest

    (– by Wrangler #5246 –)

    My theory is "bigger is better".

    At minimum double the weight of the vehicle and carry a snatch block.

    #2733
    Anonymous
    Guest

    (– by Kona #7006 –)

    Thanks Drizit!

    Totally appreciate everyone's feedback.

    #2734
    Anonymous
    Guest

    (– by Drizit #6240 –)

    My theory is "bigger is better".

    At minimum double the weight of the vehicle and carry a snatch block.

    I'm with Wrangler on this one, the winch manufatures say 1.5x the weight of the vehicle however you must consider how they are rated.  An 8000lbs winch is rated to pull an 8000lbs keep in mind those ratings are based on the last layer of rope on the spool and that doesn't last for a great deal of your pull if you even get there. Each sucessive layer you get back on reduces your pulling power by about 10%  A snatch block will double your pulling power and also let you pull out twice as much line on a short pull.  Reading the Warn Winching guide before you ever reach for the remote is a great idea.
    http://www.warn.com/corporate/images/90/TechGuide_PN62885-A2.pdf

    Understanding just what kinds of loads you will be applying requires a bit of math but it's not that bad.

    Taken from: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/812gREqqovS.pdf

    the formatting on this is much better in the PDF I advise you download it, this info comes from page 5&6

    To get the best from your winch and auxiliary equipment requires some understanding of the mechanics involved in winching. For winching purposes the resistance to motion of a vehicle is dependent on five main factors.
    (i) The inherent resistance to movement of the vehicle to be recovered.
    (ii) The total weight of the vehicle to be recovered.
    (iii) The nature of the surface to be transited by the vehicle to be recovered.
    (iv) The gradient up which the vehicle to be recovered is required to be moved.
    (v) Any damage sustained by the vehicle.
    (i) The inherent resistance of a vehicle depends on whether the vehicle has sustained any damage to it’s rolling gear, e.g. whether all or some
    of the wheels are missing or not, the state of the tyres on any remaining wheels (a flat tyre will cause considerable drag, it may be advisable to
    change a tyre that is deflated before commencing recovery operations), friction in the drive-train (which will cause drag), and the weight of the
    vehicle.
    (ii) The weight of the vehicle, includes all equipment, luggage, fuel, passengers and stores, etc. aboard the vehicle.
    (iii) The nature of the surface to be traversed is the second largest variable in the winching equation. A vehicle in good running order on a metalled
    surface will only require a force of about 4% of its total weight to induce motion, whereas a vehicle to be recovered from a bog will require a pull
    equivalent to about 50% of the total weight of the vehicle. The table below shows that different surfaces require proportionate efforts to produce
    vehicle movement.
    Type of Effort required to move
    Surface vehicle as a fraction of total weight
    Hard metalled road 1/25 total weight
    Grass 1/7 total weight
    Sand (hard wet) 1/6 total weight
    Gravel 1/5 total weight
    Sand (soft wet) 1/5 total weight
    Sand (soft/dry/loose) 1/4 total weight
    Shallow mud 1/3 total weight
    Bog 1/2 total weight
    Marsh 1/2 total weight
    Clay (clinging) 1/2 total weight
    A simple calculation will show that approximate rolling resistance of an undamaged vehicle on a flat surface can be predicted e.g. the pull required
    to move a vehicle weighing about 2041 kgs along a flat sandy beach of hard wet sand.
    Weight of vehicle (kgs) 2041 kgs
    = = 340kgs
    co-efficient of resistance of hard wet sand 6
    However, as all surfaces are not flat, the calculation must therefore include the gradient resistance co-efficient.
    (iv) Gradient Resistance. The gradient up which a vehicle is to be moved may only cover a short distance, over the total distance of the pull, e.g.
    a ditch or rock, or it may cover a long climb up a hill. Even for a relatively short upward pull, gradient resistance must be taken into account. For
    practical winching purposes, gradient resistance can be taken as a 1/60th weight of the vehicle for each degree of the slope, up to 45 degree
    incline.
    Gradient x weight of vehicle
    60
    e.g. for a 15 degree slope, gradient resistance will be 15/60 of the weight of the vehicle, which is 1/4 the vehicle weight. For an incline of 45
    degrees the gradient resistance will be equal to 3/4 of the total weight of the vehicle. That the slope to be negotiated to all intents and purposes
    is only 1ft high will make no difference to the calculations, and should be kept in mind when pulling vehicles up or over ridges.
    (v) The damage sustained by the vehicle is the largest variable in the winching equation. The damage resistance of the vehicle to be recovered
    can be expressed as:
    No. of damaged wheels
    Weight of Vehicle x
    No. of wheels
    02
    THE THEORY OF WINCHING 02-1
    THE THEORY OF WINCHING
    THE THEORY OF WINCHING
    Note that twin wheels count as one.
    So, if no wheels are damaged on a four wheeled vehicle then there is no damage resistance to be added to the final equation. However, if all
    four wheels are damaged on a four wheeled vehicle, then we must add the entire weight of the vehicle to the equation as the damage resistance.
    If we combine the weight of the vehicle, the type of surface to be transited, the gradient to be overcome and the damage to the vehicle we get
    the calculation:
    Weight of Vehicle Gradient Damaged Wheels
    + x Weight of Vehicle + x Weight of Vehicle
    Surface to be transited 60 Total Wheels
    Therefore the winching formulae is
    W (G x W) (DW x W)
    + + = effort required
    S 60 TW
    Where W = Weight of vehicle
    S = Surface to be transited
    G = Angle of gradient (in degrees)
    TW = Total No. of Wheels on vehicle
    DW = No. of damaged wheels on vehicle
    i.e. A vehicle weighing 2041 kgs, with two non operative wheels out of four is to be recovered up a grass bank with a slope of 45 degrees.
    Using the winching formula above.
    Where W = 2041 kgs (vehicle weight)
    S = 1/7 (co-efficient for grass)
    G = 45 (slope in degrees)
    DW = 2
    TW = 4
    We have
    2041 (45 x 2041) (2 x 2041) (91845) 4082
    + + = 292 + +
    7 60 4 60 4
    = 292 + 1531 + 1020
    = 2843 kgs effort required to recover vehicle.
    If we substitute shallow mud for the surface (co-efficient of 1/3) in the above equation we get:
    2041 (45 x 2041) (2 x 2041) (91845) 4082
    + + = 680 + + = 3231 kgs effort
    30 60 4 60 4
    The effort required may be outside the capacity of the winch, (the rating of a winch usually refers to the first layer of wire rope on the drum). In
    this case, one solution may be to run out most of the winch cable to enable the winch to be used at or near its rated capacity, or introduce a pulley
    block in the winch line to create a mechanical advantage, thus reducing the effort required by the winch.

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